In this conversation, I’m joined by behavior change expert Marcy Verduin, Senior Associate Dean for Medical Education, Professor of Psychiatry, University of Central Florida College of Medicine to unpack the psychology behind lasting change. We explore why motivation isn’t enough, why “starting over” is actually part of the process, and how to build habits that become a natural part of your life.
Why is it so hard to stick with the habits we know are good for us?
If you’ve ever wondered why you keep falling back into old patterns—even when you’re motivated to change—this episode is for you.
In this conversation, I’m joined by behavior change expert Marcy Verduin, Senior Associate Dean for Medical Education, Professor of Psychiatry, University of Central Florida College of Medicine to unpack the psychology behind lasting change. We explore why motivation isn’t enough, why “starting over” is actually part of the process, and how to build habits that become a natural part of your life.
The truth is, behavior change isn’t about having more willpower. It’s about understanding how change really works, embracing the discomfort that comes with growth, and taking small, strategic steps that create momentum over time.
Whether you’re trying to exercise consistently, improve your nutrition, or finally follow through on the promises you’ve made to yourself, this episode will help you stop judging yourself and start creating habits that actually last.
If you’ve ever said, “Why can’t I just be more consistent?” this conversation may completely change the way you think about personal growth.
Remember, lasting transformation rarely happens through one big breakthrough. It happens through small decisions, repeated consistently, until they become part of who you are.
When you understand the science of behavior change, you stop relying on motivation and start creating a life that naturally supports the habits you want.
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Marcy, I am so excited, so excited to have this conversation with you today. This is something that we've been talking about, and I am both perplexed and enthralled by the topic of behavior change. And it's something that I personally struggle with, as I think most people do.
And even though I feel like I'm a master at strategy, as a coach, the hardest nut for me to crack with my clients is providing them with tools on how to change their behavior. Because having the motivation and having the strategy is one thing, but for most of us, we have those habits or those behaviors that are just so hard to change.
And I'm so thrilled to have you here today, because you are absolutely an expert on this topic. And so we're going to be answering the question: why is changing your habits, your behavior, so stinking hard? And what can you do to transform even your worst habits?
So I've brought in my favorite expert, who is someone I also personally adore. She is a professor of psychiatry, and behavior change is Marcy's jam. I'm so excited to put this into a context that you can relate to, so that you can use these tips, tools, and resources and concepts to start to change your own habits.
So, Marcy, can you put into, let's say, like layman's terms, or maybe your own words, how you see behavior change?
Sure. Absolutely.
So if you think about behavior change in its simplest terms, change means that we are giving up something, right? Maybe we're giving up something that we like. It may mean that we're starting something new, right? So if we're thinking about working out, since I'm talking to you, maybe we are giving up sitting on the couch at night when we go to the gym, or giving up sleep to get up early to go to the gym. It's starting something new. It often means engaging in hard work or doing something that requires effort, right? So behavior change means that we're doing something different than what we've always been doing.
Sometimes it means that it's painful, right? Sometimes change is painful for us. We're going to make mistakes. We are going to have learning curves. We risk failure, which is really uncomfortable for some of us. And we really have to self-reflect as we're doing it. Like, what do I want to change? What isn't going well? And really delayed gratification.
So when we're not engaging in behavior change, we're just kind of on automatic pilot, right? Like, these are the things we always do. We just do the things that we enjoy. When we engage in behavior change, we are doing something different, and it requires effort and requires us to think about it.
And so let's say someone has a habit or behavior that is just really bothering them, right? It's in their head every single day, multiple times per day.
I love your example of, let's say, starting to exercise. Or even my community, it's probably not so much starting to exercise. It's getting more consistent with exercise, right?
So why is it that someone would have this desire deeply, right, and ruminate on it and comment to themselves every single day, multiple times per day? I really should work out today, or I really should get more consistent. So if the desire is there and the daily mantra is there, why is it still hard to actually take the action?
Yeah, great question. If you really think about changes that people make, it is 100% normal as human beings to feel ambivalent about changes that we want to make. It's 100% normal for us to feel ambivalent. And that's what makes it hard for us to change.
And a way to think about it is what you're doing currently, even if you don't like it, even if you know that you want it to be different, even if you've gotten educated that something would be better if you did it differently. What you're doing currently, you get something out of. Otherwise, you wouldn't be doing it, right?
I love, yeah, let's talk about that, because I think this is a piece of it that people don't understand. And so, for example, I'm going to use, you know, not myself, obviously, but I'll speak in the first person. So I is a listener, or, you know, Susie out there in the world. I really want to start exercising today or tomorrow, right? So I feel this desire or this motivation. It doesn't feel ambivalent to me. It feels like it's something that I really want, right?
And so what, when we look at the what the person is giving up, right? Another way of saying it is, for some, in some way, shape or form, Susie believes she really wants this change and it's best for her, but yet she's not doing it.
Therefore, there is some gratification, or there's some benefit, or there's something good that she's getting out of it that she isn't aware of that. And so how does a, right, how does a person start to become aware of, like, those things they're getting out of it that they don't even realize?
Well, the first thing I want women to do is realize that this is normal in the process. It doesn't mean that you're bad at change. It doesn't mean that you can't do it. It doesn't mean that you're a failure. It's important to recognize that it's normal.
And then to say to yourself, okay, let's really figure out, like, what, and we'll talk about some techniques later, but what is it that I am getting out of this, and how do I actually get over that hump to make the change?
So, you know, I'll talk about myself. I mean, now I'm working out consistently, but when I wasn't, I would find excuses. I would come up with, you know, I tend to work out at night usually. So I'd come up with, like, oh, it was a really long day. I'm so tired. You know, it's because I wanted to go home and sit on the couch. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to go sit on the couch and veg out and watch TV or do something else, right?
And so I would convince myself that, you know, that was the right thing to do because that was easier for me to do. It was a lot of effort to force myself to go to the gym instead. I knew what I should do, but it was, I wanted to go home. That was what I got from it.
Or when I've told myself I should get up and go to the gym early in the morning, I would convince myself, well, you're not, you really need to sleep. You're not getting enough sleep. You're going to be too tired the rest of the day. And so, you know, I was giving up sleep, and that was hard for me.
So we all have something that there's a reason we aren't changing, because even though we want the change, there's something that we like about the behavior that we're currently engaging in.
It seems that often that can be subconscious for people. It's out of their awareness. They just get stuck in the, I should go home and rest because I had a hard day of work, right? How does a person start to awaken to the fact that that's actually an excuse?
If it's out of their awareness, right? Because I think a lot of people just don't even realize that there's a desire underneath it. They're getting something out of it, but they don't know it. They're unaware of it. How does the person even become kind of honest with themselves so they can see what's really at play?
Yeah, good, good question. I think for me, I, because, you know, even knowing this, even knowing all about behavior, behavior change does not mean that I always apply it to myself, because it's 100% normal to be ambivalent, right, about change. So when I find myself kind of engaging in the same behavior over and over and over, even though I want something to be different, you know, I think I will pause and try to look back and be like, all right, how long has this been going on that I've been doing it?
So I would say if, like, it's been a repeated pattern for you that, you know, every time you start to work out, you go, like, for one week and then you give up. You go for two weeks and you give up. Then there's probably something happening in the background that you haven't really addressed why you, you, you know, what you're enjoying about that current behavior.
And the other way I would say it is if you find yourself saying, I just don't have any willpower about X, then that might be an area where there's something that you are really, you know, it's the benefits of staying the same have not reached a point where they are outweighed by the benefits of change. And I almost think of it as, like, a scale. Like, if you pick, like, those, picture those judicial scales, right? Like the balance. When the benefits of change tip the scales and they are, you get, you see more benefits from change than from staying the same, that is usually what then drives human behavior to make a change.
And sometimes, Holly, that can come from something like, I just got a medical diagnosis that I don't want that has tipped me over to change. I am now going to do something about it, right? It might be, I don't know, your weight hits a certain point, or your knees start hurting, or, you know, I'm focusing on diet and exercise, but it could be in any area of your life that you want to change. Something happens where you go, wait, I have to change. And that's usually the point where people will start taking action.
And do you think that point is often arrived at through pain, right? So I think, like, the examples you just gave, they get to the point where they realize the pain they're dealing with and/or experience the suffering or the pain of their current behavior. And that's the thing that motivates them to change, right?
Because I think this notion of behavior doesn't change until the benefits out, the benefits of change outweigh the benefits of staying the same, right? And I've got an example in my mind of myself, and it's like, well, how do I know the benefits of the change if I've never experienced it before?
Sure. I mean, certainly pain can be a great motivator, right? The pain of a diagnosis, physical pain that you're experiencing, some sort of suffering. But it doesn't always have to be that way.
Sometimes it's just a difference, like, really bringing into your conscious awareness a difference between your current reality and what reality you want it to be.
So, for example, somebody might be a longtime smoker, cigarette smoker, and it's really when it comes into conscious awareness that maybe their kids or grandkids are complaining that their clothes smell like smoke. And, you know, they don't want that for them, or they're realizing that they're getting short of breath and they can't keep up with their grandkids or their kids. Like, it doesn't have to be painful, but they're realizing there's this thing that I want, which is not my current reality. And sometimes that's enough to tip it over.
And what is, when someone right now is thinking of that behavior that they want to change, so I'll use myself as an example because I'm actually really good with my habits and my behaviors, and I'm very proud of myself for so many things that I've conquered. And really and truly, there is, I believe, only one area in my life that I cannot master. And a lot of my listeners already know this. I cannot crack my own addiction to caffeine.
I am, I don't abuse it, but I definitely know that it's showing up in my life sometimes in not a positive way. And I believe my life would be better without it. And yet, it's something that I haven't mastered or cracked, right? And so, like, what is that first step when someone is just fully stuck, right?
Like, I don't necessarily know that I believe the benefits of that change outweigh the benefits of what I'm getting now. And so when it's something, let's say, that isn't a big problem in a person's life, because, like, my caffeine intake isn't an overt problem. It's certainly not unhealthy. I just know I'd be better without it.
And so when we're talking about some of these behaviors or habits that are maybe less concerning or less worrisome, how does a person get to that place where they're like, I do want to change this? How can I take action and move towards that experiment?
Okay, so let's do a couple things. I'd like to ask your listeners to think of something in their life that they would like to change that they haven't made that change yet, right? Something that they want to change. It could be like you. It could be caffeine. Maybe they're not as consistent with their exercise routine or not as consistent on their diet. Maybe they're not sleeping enough. Maybe it's, I mean, it could be calling a family member more often. It could be anything that you want, excuse me, to be different.
And so when you think about that change, and I'm going to ask you, Holly, to think about this, it is normal for human beings to go through five stages of change, like when we actually make a behavior change. And this was identified by some researchers, Prochaska and DiClemente.
And you start in a stage called pre-contemplation. And this is where you're really not even planning to make a change, right? Maybe you're not even thinking about it. Maybe, Holly, this is where you're like, do I really need to change my caffeine, right? Like, it's fine. Is it really causing a problem for me? Okay?
Yep.
Usually when people end up moving into being ready to change, they then will move into something called contemplation. That's like, you know, thinking, well, maybe it would be better for me if I wasn't drinking so much caffeine. Like, maybe I should start to think about it. They're not quite ready yet. Maybe they're not thinking about changing for a few months, or it's just sort of like, at some point in the future, I'll make this change.
Once they move into the next stage, though, that's preparation. That's usually when people have decided, I want to do something about this, and they begin to think about how am I going to do it? What is it going to take for me to be successful? What are the steps I can take? The next step would be to go into action where you're actually doing the thing. You're actually making the change. And then hopefully after you've been doing that for a while, you enter maintenance.
Now, the reality is you can exit the stages of change at any point in that cycle, right? You could be in preparation and all of a sudden fall out and be back in pre-contemplation. Maybe just something changed in your mind. It got stressful at work. For whatever reason, you decided not to do it. And so rather than, I think a lot of times people think, I just need to go from, I want to make a change all the way, like, I just need to decide I'm going to make a change and then go all the way to action.
The reality is it's usually more successful when you move, you think about, well, how do I get myself to pre-contemplation? How do I get myself to preparation, et cetera? Not that, not that people think in those, that language. That's what I think about as an expert, right? But really, people are starting to think through, like, well, why is it important to me? And what are the steps I need to take? And we can talk about some exercises that you can use to do that. But if you were to think about your own caffeine, self-described caffeine addiction, Holly, where would you put yourself in those stages of change?
Well, I've been over here giggling quietly because it's clear as day. I've been in contemplation for 10 years about this and.
Right.
Or longer, by the way. If you know me, you know. And so here's what I see in my own behavior. I bounce back and forth between preparation and action. I'm always in preparation, right? And so then something will happen.
I will get motivated enough. I get into action, but I quickly fall out of the action and go back to contemplation. And I find myself bouncing between those three. I'm always contemplating it. Sometimes I'm in preparation.
I go to bed and I think, tomorrow morning I'm going to get up and I'm going to do this to change my habit, right? And sometimes I'll be successful. More times I'm not. I might be successful one, two, or three times, and then I fall back. And so it's really clear to me that I've never, ever been able to get to that place of maintenance.
Right. So what happens when you fall back? What's the thought process?
Ooh, that's a great question. And that's actually a really tough question. I suspect that there's something I'm getting out of the specific form of my caffeine in the morning, right? There's something I'm getting out of it that is even more powerful than I realize, because I get into the action and the payoff, right, or the benefit isn't obvious enough quickly.
So maybe it's, it's like wanting instant gratification. I'm not sure. But I think that, like, if I'm in action, let's say once or twice or three mornings in a row, I suspect that I'm not getting anything out of that or the thing that I need. And so I go, I give it up, right? I go right back to the old habit of what I would normally do. Does that make sense?
It does. It makes complete sense because you quickly think, oh, but I'm so tired today, or I need this jolt, or I need whatever it is, right? And like, so if we're just speaking about caffeine, it's going to take more than a few days before you see the benefit.
In fact, you're going to see more negatives, right, in those first few days before you see the benefit. Kind of like somebody who hasn't worked out in a long time and they go to the gym and they're like, oh, I'm so sore. And then they don't go back, right?
And so you have to do, so you are jumping between preparation and action. But I would say you may be jumping too far ahead in your preparation and action and almost setting yourself up for failure. You might need to move a little bit more slowly and/or keep the, do a better job of keeping your actual driver and motivation for why you want to do it in front of you.
Closer to heart. That makes a lot of sense, right? So.
Yeah, like, look at it every day. Put it on the, I don't know if you drink coffee or green tea or whatever. Yeah, I know. I've heard you talk about green tea. Put it, put like, put something in on the, like, your green tea that says, remember, this is what you're going for, right?
That's not going to always do it, but, but it does. These are all steps you can take. I don't have a magic formula that will make you change everything, but these are steps you can take to help move yourself along these, the stages of change and get into a place where you can be more successful.
You mentioned having, like, an exercise or some specific, like, ways of people that people can kind of work through this. Tell me about that.
Yeah. So these are like some techniques that I think can be really helpful. I mean, often in my field, we'll, we'll work with people where we'll ask some of these questions. But I think these are questions that if you are really going, if you're serious, I think your listeners are serious about, like, how do I do this better? How do I make this change? I think you can pause and reflect and ask yourself some of these questions.
So I'm going to ask them of you, Holly. So I'm going to ask your listeners to also think about that thing that they said they wanted to change and to kind of play along with you.
So thinking about your caffeine, you know, your caffeine use, if you were to tell me how important it is for you to make this change on a scale of one to 10, where one is not important at all and 10 is very, very important, where would you put it right now for yourself?
You know, it's funny. This week, I would put that importance lower. Some weeks it's higher. I think.
Sure.
Right now, this week, I would put that importance at like a five.
A five. Okay. So tell me, Holly, why is it a five and not a one?
Ooh, interesting. Oh, that's interesting. Okay.
So because I see in my days the negative impact of that coffee from the morning. And so I can see how that habit is causing certain things that I don't want in my life, right? Like later in the day, I don't feel so good. I definitely think that it impacts my sleep and my workouts.
And so at some point during the day, it's like, ooh, I see the problem with this habit. And therefore, it's always operating in the back of my head where it's like, hmm, this is something I should probably change.
Yeah. So you just told me all the reasons why you want to change. And I think that's what this little tool does for you.
What a lot of people want to do is say, well, it's a five. I need to wait till it's a 10. And the reality is that that's not how you're going to get to 10. Then you are waiting for pain. You're waiting for something to be so significant that you're all the way up at a 10 usually, right?
So you start asking yourself, if you say, why is it, if I said to you instead, why is it a five and not a 10? What would you have told me instead?
Ooh. Ooh, that's a great question. Why is it a five and not a 10?
I think because this week I'm feeling pretty good and I'm not, I'm not dealing with some of those symptoms that I know come from too much caffeine. And so like this week, it's a habit that's not causing me as much pain or hassle or, yeah, this week, right?
But some weeks it is. Some weeks I'm like, ooh, I really got to change that habit because I am not feeling good right now.
So that's why I'm asking your listeners to think, on a scale of one to 10, where are you? And then ask yourself, why is it that number and not a one? And if it was a one, then maybe it's not a habit you're ready to change at all, right? But, you know, even if it's a two or a three, what, what makes it that instead of a one? And that will usually tell you why you think it's important to change.
Now, that might move you just from pre-contemplation to contemplation where you're beginning to think about it more seriously. It might get you into preparation, but all those steps are important. It's moving you closer to the change. So rather than looking at change as one big event, done or not done, think about it as a continuum. Like, how do I get myself closer to being ready to really commit and make this change?
And then my second question for you is thinking about your caffeine use and for your listeners, whatever change you're thinking about on that same scale of one to 10, how confident are you that you can make the change lasting change once you decide to do it?
Oh, I'm not confident at all. So is that like a one, two, or three? Is that lower?
Yeah. What number would you give it?
I would give it like, I'm not confident. So I would give myself like a three because I feel like it's something I've been contemplating and I've never succeeded at. And so it's, it's kind of caused me to doubt myself.
Okay. So I'm going to ask you again, Holly, why a three and not a one?
Hmm. Hmm.
Because I know I've conquered and changed other tough habits in my life. I've done it before with other things. So therefore, there's a part of me that knows I could do it with this as well.
Yes. So exactly. You just demonstrated what our normal human psyche likes to do, which is it's a three because I'm not confident at all. I haven't been able to do it. And to give all the reasons we can't change. And that's normal.
But if you force yourself to go, okay, but why is it a three and not a one? I have done hard things before. I have made changes that were difficult before. You start to see that you can actually have success even in hard things. It builds your confidence.
And the previous question, how important is it? It builds your reason for changing. Does that make sense?
Yeah. So let's repeat those two questions because I want people to write it down. Yes, it will be in the show notes, but, you know, these two questions are so powerful because it really makes you stop and think. So the first question is, write this down. Marcy, go ahead.
Yep. It is. Yep. It's on a scale of one to 10, how important is it to you to make this change where one is not important at all and 10 is the most important thing?
I love it. And the second question.
On a scale of one to 10, how confident are you that you can make this change?
And do you recommend, like, is this something a person, you know, should almost do as like a writing exercise every day or repeat and ask themselves, you know, each day to rate on that scale of one to 10? How do you actually put it to use?
I think it can be something that you might revisit over time. I think it's probably, you know, up to you if you want to, to do it on a more regular basis. But I mean, I think if you do it and you're like, oh, wow, I can see that this is actually really important to me, you might already be moving on to the next, you know, to the next step.
But if it's not, then I might, I might, if you're a person who does reflection, you might ask yourself that a couple of times. Or if there's some loved one that you care about, you can be like, hey, would you ask me this again in like a week or two? Right?
Now, I want to be clear. These are not techniques that usually I am, you know, from a clinical standpoint, having my patients ask themselves. I just think these are, these are ways that we, that we can ask ourselves questions about our own motivation and our own behavior.
Without a doubt. And I think that, you know, there's a, there's a saying out there that it's like, you know, the quality of your life is a reflection of the quality of the questions you ask yourself, right? And so those are really powerful questions.
I'm always looking for those tools that people can use because I know behavior change is so hard for people.
And I think the first part is that awareness, as you said, because people are generally ambivalent about change. And then having that like a practical tool that you can go to each and every day to practice until you're in action consistently, that it really makes a big change.
Yeah. So I think another really good exercise that you could do, and maybe you can do this now kind of out loud with us, Holly, to kind of demonstrate it. But if your listeners, even if you need to push pause, if you grab a sheet of paper and I would just have you fold it in half and fold it in half again so that you have four quadrants. Okay.
And I'm going to ask you each one, Holly. So if you don't want to write it on a piece of paper, that's fine. But at the, in the top left corner, I would write pros of staying the same. So Holly, for you, what are the pros? What are the benefits of you continuing your caffeine use as it is?
Ooh, I don't have to change. It's easy.
It's easy, right?
That's the pro, right? Like I don't have to change. Yep. No pain of change. The pro is I get to just enjoy it. The pro of keeping it, what are the benefits of it? Yeah. I get the enjoyment, I guess.
It probably perks you up. You get a little bit of energy from it. It makes you more mentally alert. Depending on what your favorite coffee shop is, you get to go enjoy that, right? Like you could generate an entire list of things you like about enjoying your caffeine.
Yep.
So now in the top right corner, you will write pros of change. So Holly, what are the benefits of reducing or eliminating your caffeine?
My energy will be better and more consistent. My recovery from workouts will be better. I will sleep better. I will feel less in fight or flight on the regular. I believe my anxiety will be better. I could go on and on and on.
Right.
Clearly, I've contemplated these. Yes. And so those are the reasons. I also think there is sort of a bit of a, I don't know, I guess I might say like a spiritual angle to it where it's like I don't, I don't want to be dependent or addicted to something. And I think it would feel really good to feel free from that thing that has kept me, you know, kind of in shackles, if you will.
Sure. And is your goal to be no caffeine or to have it reduced?
Ultimately, my goal is to have no caffeine. And I know that even just reducing it, I would feel better and shift it from coffee to green tea. I would feel better. And maybe that is my first step, right? Is to just like shift the habit before trying to complete it or to quit it altogether. But the dream really is zero caffeine.
Sure. Absolutely. And then another question, if you keep going down in the quadrants, the cons of change would be the right bottom quadrant. So what are the bad parts of change? Holly, what would, what makes you go, I really don't want to change?
It is my crutch when I'm tired. It, and if I were to give it up, I wouldn't have that. So the con would be I'm going to have to deal with moments or days where I'm not able to rely on it for a pick me up.
I'm thinking you'll, you'll, it's a while before you experience those benefits, right?
Yes.
You're going to be tired. You may have to.
100%. Yes. Exactly.
You may feel irritable, right?
Yep. Exactly. I think that's a big piece of it. It's like, I know I'm not going to feel well for a period of time when I give it up.
Right. And then the last quadrant, the bottom left is what are the cons of staying the same?
The cons of staying the same. I think I will just continue with this little bug in my ear of thinking that I need to change, right? So it's sort of like I constantly am playing that loop in my head that I'm supposed to quit or I should quit. And so the cons of staying the same is like that loop just continues.
I also wouldn't get to experience the benefits of quitting, right? And the potential benefits that I'm not even aware of if I were to quit. And the cons of staying the same and not giving up that habit is I continue to deal with those negative benefits that I mentioned.
I do feel that it's, even though you get that temporary rush of energy from caffeine, you also get the crash later in the day. And so the con of not changing, right? The con of staying the same really is I'm going to continue dealing with those negative effects of caffeine when it wears off.
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I'm going to ask you another question right now.
Just from doing that, kind of like you can call it like a decisional balance exercise, right? The pros of staying the same, the pros of change, the cons of change, and the cons of staying the same.
If I asked you again on a scale of one to 10, how important is it to you to make a change? Did that needle move at all or did it stay the same?
100%. Yeah. Because it really, you know, kind of brings to heart why that constant conversation is ongoing. And so without a doubt, that motivates me more. That makes me feel more like a, I would even say like a seven or an eight in terms of the importance of changing that habit. Without a doubt. Yeah.
So in what you've just done is you've acknowledged the ambivalence, right? That's what that decisional balance did. You acknowledged your ambivalence. You said, yep, there are things I like about it. There are things I don't like about it. And as you talked about it, you kind of convinced yourself that ultimately you do want it to be different.
Yeah. Absolutely.
That's what you just did.
Yeah.
And so there are some other questions that you can ask yourself to kind of like think about, you know, how important is this really to me? So, and if you want to put any of these in the show notes, you're welcome to, but you could ask yourself like, what do I wish were different or how would I like things to change?
And you kind of talked through that a little bit already, right? Like, you know, I would have more energy and, you know, so you can ask yourself that question.
I would ask you if you really decided that you wanted to do it and have it be successful for the long term, you know, where you enter that maintenance phase, how could you do it?
Ooh, that's a good question. Yeah. That's a really good question. Ooh, that's such a good question. I would find an alternative. I would find some other habit that I could employ in place of it.
Sure. And then sometimes it's about, you know, you can ask yourself, well, let me generate a bunch of ideas of how I could do this. And then you think about all the ideas that you've generated and you say, which one seems most possible? Not that you're committing to do it right now. You could be in pre-contemplation, thinking for the future or contemplation, thinking for the future. But, you know, what seems most possible?
And sometimes what people are trying to do is make too big of a step. So, you know, I've worked with a lot of people trying to reduce their caffeine. And what often they do is they go, I'm drinking this much caffeine and I'm going to stop all of a sudden. And that is usually a setup for failure.
But if you could do something, and I'm just going to suggest some ideas, if you could do something like, say, start making your morning coffee, I don't know, maybe it's three-quarters calf and a quarter decaf.
Yep.
And do that for a few days to a week. Like we does not have to be a rush. You've got the rest of your life to do this. It's not an urgent medical, you know, reason that you've been told you have to reduce caffeine.
And then as your body adjusts to that, drop it to half caffeinated, half decaf, et cetera, right? And so you can slowly, gradually decrease it.
And then maybe in the morning you're enjoying decaf, right? And you're happy with that. You get to enjoy the flavor of it, but you don't get the jolt.
Or you might decide, you know, quarter calf or half calf is just fine. I don't, I feel good at that level, but you don't necessarily have to go all or none. You can take kind of a baby step and then another baby step. Does that make sense?
Yeah. I think that's so important for people to hear. And as you're saying that, I'm looking back at other big habits that I changed over time. And that's exactly how I did it. I changed a little bit at a time so that that little bit of change became the new habit.
And so I think you're right. I think that that is a big part of this conversation, which is we don't have to jump directly from preparation to maintenance and that action could look a number of ways. And it really could look like baby steps until those things become habits. I think that's a super, super powerful context.
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, if you think about it, what do you tell us about increasing our weights? We're only supposed to increase by 10 to 20% every few weeks. We don't just jump in there and throw big weights on because we want to be lifting heavy, right? It's the same idea. Baby steps to make the changes.
So the other thing is if you're really struggling with this, a good question you could ask yourself is, well, really, why change at all? What's the problem? Like, why don't we just, what's the problem with continuing how things are now?
I think that's a really good question too, because it automatically reinforces my complaints of it. The, you know, the issues that I have with it, the problems that I have of it, right?
Because like my husband has actually said that to me before. He's like, why do you need to give it up? Why do you need to quit it? And then it's really reinforcing and in defense of why I want to change in the first place.
Absolutely. Because we human beings like homeostasis. We like to keep things balanced and equal. So we don't really want to change what we're doing, right? So I think our normal mindset when there's a change is to come up with all the reasons why we shouldn't, couldn't, you know, don't want to, et cetera.
And so when you start to actually ask yourself that, well, really, what is the problem with continuing how things are now? And if your answer to that is there's really not a problem, then again, maybe you're in pre-contemplation and you're just not ready to change it yet. And that's okay. You know, maybe it doesn't have to change yet.
Yep.
And then the last question I would encourage people to ask is really what needs to occur in order for me to decide to make this change?
Ooh, that's another good one. Yeah. What needs to occur in order for me to make this change? Ooh, I mean, for me, it's making the decision. It's just what needs to occur is I need to make the decision that I'm going to do it.
Yeah. And I think have a more balanced plan, right? Like not just cold turkey it, right?
Yep.
So if I were to ask you again now on that scale of one to 10, how confident are you that you could make this change? Holly, where would you put yourself now?
Oh, that's so good. Probably more like a seven or an eight.
Wow. So you jumped from a three to a seven or eight. So why a seven or eight now and not the three?
Because you've just reminded me and I've kind of like experienced internally all those other habits that I did conquer, all those other things I did change. And also really it maps out a plan and a way to see how it could happen. Otherwise, it's just an idea.
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So I mean, these are my general thoughts on behavior change. You know, it's something that I've seen a lot of. I've applied some of these thoughts to myself, right? And trying to make changes.
And I think it's, you know, again, there's no magic pill. There's no, like, it's not like a miracle. You just do this step, do this exercise, and all of a sudden you change. But it helps you to start thinking through some of the mental steps you need to make and the conclusions you need to draw in order to change.
It's a journey. It's a practice. It's a process, like pretty much everything else in life.
Yeah. That's what the stages of change are all about, right? And there are, there's probably been times in your life, even with your own training or your diet, where you've fallen out of maintenance that you've been in there a long time. Maybe it was a big vacation or something, and you've got to get back in, right?
And you have to prepare and you have to do the action steps. And it is normal. That's, so I really want women to know they don't need to feel guilty about it. That doesn't mean you just give in and be like, change is hard. I'm just not going to do it.
It's normal to have change be hard and to have ambivalent feelings about it. But there are things you can do, self-reflection, questions you can ask yourself to help you move through the process.
I love it. This is super powerful, Marcy. Thank you so much.
Absolutely.
I love it.